Phelan, John G. , P.E. - Oral History (transcript)

              Fairfield University
Oral History Transcripts
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John G. Phelan, P.E.
Fletcher-Thompson Architects
February 26, 1993
John G. Phelan, P.E.
a brief biography
“From my earliest days… this has been very much a part of our family's social, religious,
educational environment. I went here to Prep… and then after my education I came back
here and worked on the various buildings out here, so… there's very little at the University
that we haven't had some involvement with and it's been wonderful.”
John G. Phelan and Fletcher-Thompson Architects have long been a part of Fairfield
University history. Mr. Phelan’s father, J. Gerald Phelan, started with the Bridgeport-based
engineering firm Fletcher-Thompson as a draftsman in 1916 and by the time Fairfield
University was looking to expand the campus in the mid-to late forties, was running the firm.
Going to prep school in the newly-constructed Xavier and Berchmans Halls that his father
designed, John G. Phelan graduated from Fairfield College Preparatory School in 1950. He
went on to earn a B.S. at Holy Cross, and in 1956, joined his father’s organization as a field
engineer while concurrently completing studies in Civil Engineering at Yale University.
During the 1960s, he served as executive assistant to the president of the firm. Mr. Phelan
succeeded his father as president of Fletcher-Thompson in April 1970. Since Fairfield’s
earliest days until the present, Fletcher-Thompson has designed many of the buildings on
campus in addition to Xavier and Berchmans, including Loyola Hall, Gonzaga Hall, Canisius
Hall, Regis Hall, and Campion Hall. John G. Phelan was particularly involved in the creation
of Alumni Hall, the John A. Barone Campus Center, the Egan Chapel and the Regina A.
Quick Center for the Arts. John G. Phelan retired from Fletcher-Thompson in 1998. During
his long career, John G. Phelan has been active both in his profession and in the
community. His memberships have included the National Society of Civil Engineers, the
American Society of Civil Engineers, the Connecticut Society of Architects and the
Connecticut Building Congress. He has been a director and past president of the Bridgeport
Chamber of Commerce, director of the Bridgeport Economic Development Corporation, a
trustee of the People’s Savings Bank and a lecturer for the American Management
Association, as well as numerous other affiliations. Mr. Phelan has also been an active part
of Fairfield University. He served on Fairfield’s Board of Trustees from 1974-1978, as
chairman of the 1977-78 annual fund, and in 1979 was chairman of the President’s Circle
committee. The university sponsors the John G. Phelan Scholarship for Engineering
Excellence, a scholarship established in 2000 by Fletcher-Thompson Inc. This competitive
scholarship is awarded to junior or senior engineering majors who have achieved top grade
point averages, and includes the possibility of a summer internship at Fletcher-Thompson
Inc.
Sources: Fletcher-Thompson Inc. - History, at http://www.fletcherthompson.com/ ; “John G. Phelan,” Public
Relations Files, Fairfield University Archives and Special Collections; The Chronicles of Fairfield University, Book
2: An Era of Steady Growth and Change, 1992. p. 8-10; Fairfield University Course Catalog, 2010-2011.
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ORAL HISTORY: JOHN PHELAN, FEBRUARY 1993
My father was closely associated with Jim Joy and Jim Joy's brother or something was a
Jesuit and so when they came down, when the Jesuits came here, they were meeting people
who had some association with the Jesuits and my father met with them at the time and tried
to do what he could to help them as they arrived' in the aka. My earliest memories of
Jesuits, I was probably just about 10 years old then, and my earliest memories was coming
up here with my mother to deliver Plum Pudding at Christm- as because the Jesuits, of course,
there were about 5 or 6 of them at the time up here in the big house and she would make
meals, as other mothers in the area would do, and deliver them up here to the Jesuits so that
started. And then, there was, they had had a and I'm not quite sure, but there was an
architect by the name of Oliver Regan who had done a Master Plan of some kind and then
Father Dolan got my father involved and they started. to create the campus. And Father
Dolan had an image of this, you know, collegiate gothic he used to call it, and had an image
that that was going to be, it was sort of like a Yale University-type thing. That was colleges
were to be, that was what colleges were to look like. Well, it soon became evident that that
vision and the economies. of scale and practicalities of what had to be done, particularly
during those war years was not going to make it.
Oral History: John Phelen
DID YOU KNOW FATHER DOLAN AT ALL?
Yes, oh yeah. He was at our house many times. But I was, of course, a youngster then,
growing up, but he came to our home and visited with us over the years. Of course the first
buildings, Berchmans and Xavier, got built in that initial style, but that was the last of those.
WAS YOUR FATHER INVOLVED IN THOSE?
My father was involved in all of that work, from the first building being Berchmans and he was
involved in it. I was, I came here to the Prep in the Fall of '46, but in the Fall of '46, the
freshmen couldn't fit on the campus so we went down to Seaside Park and I think there was
maybe only one or two years that we were at Seaside Park. I mean, our class was there only
a one year and then we came back and we went to, we waited for Berchmans to open and then
we went to Berchmans.
WHAT WAS IT LIKE HERE IN THOSE DAYS? DO YOU REMEMBER?
Oh yeah, you know, it was very woodsy and you had a long walk through the woods to get from
one spot to another. Obviously the students' extra-curricular activity was smoking which was
the biggest sin in the world at that time, off in the woods behind where the gym is now. There
was a grand old, there was a pump house and a sort of little gazebo back there in the woods in
those days and that was.. .only the bad guys went down there, the good guys like me, we never
went there. It was a fun time. There was something about the early years. Of course, we were
at the Prep, there was no University then and the . . . it was fun to be part of . . . you didn't
realize what you were part of, but you were really part of something very special starting out
a and everybody kind of chipped in to do various things. The Mother's and the Father's Clubs
Oral History: John Phelen 2
were so active. The area was kind of starved for this type of thing. It became quite evident that
they were starved for it so there was a tremendous outpouring for volunteer help.
WERE YOUR PARENTS INVOLVED IN VOLUNTEER WORK?
Oh sure, my father was involved, my mother became ... she was either the Second or Third
Vice President of the Bellarmine Guild and she made friends during that time that remained her
friends for the rest of her life. I mean, they were great ... Mrs. Guillhuly, Mrs. Conklin and
Mrs. Carroll. I can remember the names, just as I sit here -- haven't thought about it for a very
long time, but to remember them. They became close friends and it was part of the social life.
As a matter of fact, we think, even today the University and the Prep is very ... from my
earliest days now, this has been very much a part of our family's social, religious, educational
environment. I went here to Prep, my cousin Joe who lived with us, he was like my brother,
he went to the Prep with us and then he went to the University and then after my education I
came back here and worked on the various buildings out here, so we would . . . there's very little
at the University that we haven't had some involvement with and it's been wonderful. I just said
that to Father Kelley when I was fortunate enough to get that medal which really was I think
more to my family than to me, but it makes you stop and think and say "What part of your life
this place has been!" And, it's pretty significant and then my son went to Prep here and he
played basketball and so he got my wife hooked on basketball, of course, and I played a little
basketball when I was here at the Prep myself so she got involved with that so we're deeply
involved with in the Basketball Program at Prep. Then he came back here after being away for
a two years in college and he played -- well he didn't play very much -- he sat a lot for the
Oral History: John Phelen 3
University's Basketball Team, but we didn't miss a game and still don't. We try to make every
game we can.
HOW DID IT FEEL WHEN YOU WERE HERE AT PREP TO BE IN A BUILDING
THAT YOUR FATHER HAD DESIGNED?
I guess in those days I really didn't even know it. I remember being Mr. Frasinelli was the . . .
Frasinelli and Epifano, E&F Construction were the contractors and Mr. Frasinelli was a
wonderful man. My father would see him socially, of course, and I can remember having him
come over and he had a huge, huge car as I remember and we were freshmen. I guess they
were building Xavier then. We were in the Berchmans Building, they were building Xavier.
He came, over and as a group of boys who came to pick me up to say hello to me and I was kind
of a celebrity that I knew that big guy with that big car, but other than that I don't remember
it having that association mean much. The building was going on. I wasn't particularly, at that
age, I was far more interested in basketball than I was in architecture or engineering.
NOW WAS YOUR FATHER INVOLVED IN BUILDING ANY OF THE BUILDINGS
DURING THE FIFTIES, LIKE LOYOLA AND GONZAGA AND CANISIUS?
Yes, as a matter of fact, my father, with his associates, early on, there was a fellow by the name
of Andrew Patrick who was associated with my Dad in the office who did some work, who did
many of the design works out here and a fellow by the name of Russ Mott and after that, that
Oral History: John Phelen 4
would be Berchmans and Xavier probably and the next one being Loyola. I think by that time
a fellow by the name of Russ Mott was the designer working with my Dad then.
WERE YOU INVOLVED AT THAT POINT YET?
No, no, that was before me. Then after that it was Xavier and Canisius, not Xavier and.
Canisius, yea Canisius with Loyola, then Canisius. Then we got involved with building the
dormitories around the northwest area. The first building that really I personally got involved
with was the Gym and I was, I had gone back to Yale University after I went to Holy Cross,
entered the Service and after the Service I came back and I graduated in Physics from Holy
Cross, which was kind of an interesting story, too, because I remember my senior year at Prep,
5
a there was a Father Dutrim who was the Physics Professor and we were all getting somewhat
courted with what school we were going to and I went to him and said that I was going to Holy
Cross and he said, "Oh, you got in there, yeah, so what do you think? What are you going to
take?" I said, "I'm going to take Physics." He said, "Oh, you're not. You'll never make it.
You'll never make it. " Well, he thought, he was not terribly encouraging and I'm not quite sure
why I ended up taking Physics but I did and I tell people, not only did I take it but I came in
fourth in my class. we started with 25 people and we ended with 4, but I don't tell that to very
many people, but at any rate.
YOU WERE ALSO GOING TO TELL ME A STORY ABOUT LARRY LANGGUTH.
Oh yeah, that was related to -- I think it was Loyola Hall. Of course, he was a Mathematician
and a Physicist and he was very much involved in the buildings in those days. I'm not quite
sure what his post was, but he certainly was right under the Rector in building and my father
Oral History: John Phelen 5
had a lot of association with him and I would be in the Prep in those days and my father would
come back and would just be tearing his hair out because he would, we'd finish up the designs
and then Langguth would take these drawings and then study them over a weekend and come
in Monday morning and he'd have a call from Langguth saying that he had analyzed all of the
fin tube radiation that we had designed to put into the buildings and the surface area of all that
fin tube, we really didn't need that much surface area and he wanted to cut off some of those
fins because he didn't want to buy any more fins than absolute minimum necessary to achieve
the thing. My father kept saying, "You buy them in 12' lengths, that's what you get them for. "
Langguth said "It was wasteful to have these extra fins on these tubes" and there were great
a debates -- engineering debates. My father was both an architect and an engineer and they'd have
great theoretic debates about how many fins they would have. I just remember that. I've long
since forgot about them, but I can remember that coming back how frustrating my father, trying
to evaluate. You'd have to bone up to go out there and talk to Father Langguth to see how he
could outwit him with all his analysis. And he did, he could analyze all of it. See what we
were putting into the building and the amount of equipment we had there and the sizes of the
pumps and the heat loss through the windows and he had it all down.
DID YOUR FATHER TALK AT ALL ABOUT ANY OF THE OTHER EXPERIENCES
HE HAD BUILDING ANY OF THESE OTHERS?
Sure, I think, well, the area, this is actually more of my own involvement at the Gym was one.
There was a Father Linehan who was a ... he was a seismic and other expert and he would, he
a developed a process and I believe it was in sound waves that he could, without doing ground
Oral History: John Phelen 6
borings, to be able to identify where rock was. When we did the Gym, there was another story
about why that Gym got to where it got to. But, at any rate, the Gym was sited where it was
and they brought in Father Linnehan to do these soundings, so we found rock on one side of the
building and the other side looked pretty good. The main drainage pipe for the northern part
of the University comes down and was going right through and it would be on the west side of
the Gym. We decided it would go on the west side of the Gym instead of the east side because
the east side held all this rock and the west side was not supposed to have it. To this day and
I am convinced and Father Linnehan would never admit to it, but I swear he had the north arrow
going the wrong way and all the soundings that he had really should have been on the west side
a instead of the right, so he found all the rock, exactly where we put the pipe and we blasted rock
that you wouldn't believe coming down on the west side of the Gym. But the story of the Gym
location was done before I got involved in the job 'cause the job was designed before I got onto
the ... I worked in the course of construction on the field, but I think and as I recall it was
Father Joseph ~itzgerald,b ut we had .. . first of all, Father Joseph Fitzgerald was not sure that
it was the right thing to do -- to put a Gymnasium in as one of the major buildings because they
didn't have very many academic buildings up there and there was a great debate as to whether
the next building should be a gymnasium or not and there was a lot of discussion about whether
the Gym should be there. When finally they decided to build the Gym, originally it was
designed to go right where the circle is now but I think it was probably Father Fitzgerald,
Joseph Fitzgerald said "You know, that's almost like the heart of the University. I don't want
a to have that building be the first thing -- the image that people get when they come to Fairfield
Oral History: John Phelen 7
University and they're going to wade by the Gymnasium before they could see any academic
buildings." I don't think that Gym would ever have get built in this location because that was,
for sure, a wetland area and it would never get through the regulatory process. Now, we never
would be able to build the Gym where it is now built if it was under current regulatory
processes. So, I think the other issues . . . we've done a lot in the last couple of years.
BEFORE YOU GO ON, I WANT TO GET BACK TO THE GYM BEFORE WE LEAVE
IT. THE DESIGN OF THE GYM, WITH THE ARCHES AND SO FORTH, CAN YOU
' TALK ABOUT THAT?
0 Sure. Sure. Well, actually it was in the early SO'S, our firm started to get actively involved in
pre-cast concrete and on-site pre-cast, which was fairly new at that time and we were deeply
involved in our industrial practice in tilt-up concrete which was pouring big slabs of concrete
wall slabs onto the floors and then lifting them up for the walls, so we developed a lot of
expertise in handling of on-site pre-cast concrete and it really traveled. We had a fellow by the
name of A1 Hawley who was our Chief Engineer, a longtime associate of my father's and he
traveled around the country picking up a lot of knowledge; the West Coast had a lot of this
pre-cast concrete, so it started with that and eventually and we started to pre-caste more and
more in various parts of the buildings on-site. It made good economic sense so I think it was,
about that time, we were doing the Stamford Catholic High School, we brought in an outside
engineering consultant to put the arches we used. The first place we used the arches was down
a there, but when the Gym came up, we had designed, oh we had designed the Gym in the round,
Oral History: John Phelen 8
we had designed it square, we had designed it with steel, a variety of different schemes and then
the Gymnasium, I think that might have been the first building, I'm quite sure it was one of the
first buildings that Bob Mutro, who joined our firm in the early 'SO'S, began to work. He then
became the Design, Chief Designer for the buildings out here, from the Gym on and he just
loved curves and he was promoting that curved structure, so there was a combination of
architecture and engineering which is what our firm has done since the beginning. They decided
"Well, we'll use these arches here." The arches had a clear span of 150'. They were cast on
the floor in 112 sections and we stacked one on top of the other. We built these curved forms
and we stacked them one on top of the other and you'd pour, oh I'd guess, they're probably
about 18" thick as they laid on their side and then we'd put a bond breaker down and pour
another one on top of that, let it cure, pour a bond breaker down and I think we stacked them
about 4 or 6 down in each and halves and then built scaffolding down the middle and then lifted
them up. We cast basically tie rods, big tie rods down with the turn buckle in them and so then
we could lift them up. The trick was to get them, obviously, to meet in the middle and to not
have them go out of whack, so you had to fine tune them with a turn buckle on the bottom and
keep juggling them to get them all even. You can imagine all those arches, the dimensional
accuracy that had to be done with those so that you ended up with them all being identically the
same and they were, but the building of the forms for that concrete was a very exacting process.
There was a chap by the name of Bill Pivarato who was the Foreman for E&F, E&F did that
as well. You know, he was a carpenter by trade, but obviously he could have been anything.
He was one of those guys -- could have been anything he wanted to be -- actually, a genius with,
Oral History: John Phelen
C
9
in terms of building'buildings. I thought I learned an awful lot from him. And I was just
coming out of Yale at the time, had all this engineering theory all pumped into my head and I
would, I was hiding thermometers around make sure he was pouring the concrete, not pouring
concrete when the weather wasn't right, checking mixes, and so forth and so on. I think back
to that time and I must have been an absolute thorn in his side and he tolerated me very well and
we became good friends after that, but would kind of say "Sonny, get of my way, let me build
this thing, will you?"
WHAT WAS THE ADVANTAGE OF HAVING THESE ARCHES? WHY DID YOU?
Well, first of all you needed a very, you needed a clear span for the gymnasium area. It was
a a pretty economical way of enclosing a large space. We used the arches and then between the
arches also was probably one of the longer spans between those arches that we used double
tongue in groove wood planking with what they called "stagger butt joints" between them so you
would have an 18 or 20' length of these things that would have a butt out in the middle of the
span and they hang up there just because the double tongue in groove on the sides of them gave
them their strength. So I think it was economy, I think it was the general architecture that the
curved roof seemed to be appropriate there and we wanted a long, narrow because when that
building was built it was both the University and the Prep and it was a huge wall that was built
between them so that the University had the northern half and then the Prep School had the
southern part of it. And so we built this big wall. We built that wall so it could come down
as it eventually did and had to be done. We also, think about that, if you sit in the stands
a someday, you'll see some steel plate in the riser of the seats there. When it first got built they
Oral History: John Phelen 10
wanted to, the Jesuits always wanted to get you know, three bucks for every one, so you built
a building, it couldn't just be for this, it had to be this and allow it to be used for this and this
and that so they did not want to have ... that was the biggest assembly space they had, so they
wanted to have it used for other kinds of things, and they didn't want to have basketball
backstops hanging down; they wanted to be able to clear that all out. Traditionally, you'd have
them and you'd just raise them out of the way. Well, that wasn't good enough so there was a
Father, who was it? Father McCabe, I think it was a Father McCabe who was then there and
he came up with the idea of "why can't we build these backstops?" It was not only the link
court, but the practice court so that they could be totally removed, so we designed these
a structures that, with cast the plates in with big sleeves in them so that we could insert pipe in
there and actually have these backstops cantilever out over where the seats are now, but you'd
have to lift them up out of there and need a place to store them and there's a place underneath
where we're going to store these things. Well, they did that, I guess they did that for a couple
of years, but it was a terrible, terrible job to do that, so that didn't last, but we always had side
courts and. side courts were removable. But, at any rate, they were horrendously heavy and I
remember and not terribly practical, but it was another teaming effort between the Jesuits and
the design team.
Oral History: John Phelen
THERE WERE A NUMBER OF BUILDINGS I GUESS THAT WENT UP IN THE '60's
WHEN FATHER MCINNES WAS HERE -- THE SCIENCE CENTER, THE LIBRARY,
THE RESIDENCE HALLS, THE CAMPUS CENTER. WERE YOU INVOLVED WITH
THOSE TOO?
We were involved with the Residence Halls; the science Building and the Library was done by
the Eggers Partnership which is an excellent New York firm who had done a lot of work. There
was a Father Small who was involved in the Library and had seen many of their buildings and
thought that that was an appropriate thing to
do, so we didn't do the Library or the Science Building and I think Eggers did both of those,
a but around those times, we were doing the various dormitories. Down in the, I remember, let
me see it would be Gonzaga I guess, it would be before that, there was a Father Dustin Kelley
who was involved in and maybe he had Bill Shiff's job is now -- he was involved with the
Residence Halls and he told us that if we knew how to build a jail, we could build a student
dormitory and we used to build these dormitories. Each one would have to be built sturdier and
sturdier; we used concrete block walls and the sinks were built with the heaviest, what the chair
carriers, cast iron tubing which come up and try to hold the fixtures and feet that would go down
and we would cast them into the concrete slabs of the areas and we used them in the first
building and the kids would come in and rip them off the walls and then they would never last,
so the next building, we would build them heavier and stronger and I don't think we ever built
them heavy enough, so in the later years we decided no, don't try and beat them, join them so
we made them, if they want to come off the walls, they'd come off easier so we'd be able to
Oral History: John Phelen 12
put them back on easier.
WAS THERE ANYTHING YOU WERE TRYING TO ACCOMPLISH WITH THE
DESIGN OF ANY OF THESE BUILDINGS?
I think the original buildings primarily because of economy followed the estate roads and they
were here, but when the dormitory areas, the traditional quadrangle was to be developed, and
the buildings in the northwest comer, Loyola, Regis, Campion, Northwest, they all were
designed, Gonzaga, they were all designed to create a quadrangle. When we did Canisius, that
was to be the first of four academic buildings. Well, we eventually got to have the Faculty
Office Building over there, which for years there was a stair to nowhere adjacent to that building
a because the Companion Building never got built. We had the dormitories in the northern area
and then the idea was to always have the Campus Center and the Chapel and Library and then
have a Southern Campus so that it would be the dormitories on the outside, but this road that
always traversed the campus was constantly a sore point because it would just severe the campus
and it became a lit& dangerous, so fortunately, in this last big effort, that road got removed
which people said "Oh, where's the road?" Well the road was never supposed to be there in
the first place. It was really a temporary road and it stayed there for 30 years or something, so
I think that was a good move to change that around. As each one of those buildings got over
the years my father, particularly, and it was so sad that he didn't live to see the Chapel built
because each Rector would come in, he'd go visit them and he'd say "Now, Father, this is a
Jesuit institution; we really have to get a Chapel. Now, in your six years," (cause we had to
a get used to a new boss every six years) so he would say, "Now, Father, this is the year for this,
Oral History: John Phelen 13
it is your term as a Chaplain." He wanted it so badly 'cause my father had done a lot of church
work. He was, that was one of his favorite building types and always wanted a Chapel on the
campus, never got to see that, but it is in a location, generally speaking, that he always thought
it should go -- right on top of that hill.
YOU DID THIS BUILDING?
Yes.
HOW WAS THE LOCATION FOR THAT DETERMINED?
Well, there were a variety of sites looked at. Father Kelley, in this instance, was very much
involved. We looked at several different locations. There was a need and a desire with the
Jesuit Presidents in this area to have it, not only in a prominent location but an area that was
well traveled by the students, and it becomes this link between the Residence Halls and the
Library in the southern part of the campus, so it wanted to be in a prominent place and in a
place that would, not only be convenient to students, but the students would see it, whether they
went into it or not. It was there as a presence and I think it's a totally appropriate place for it.
You know, even now when you go up there, those carillons ring and there's no parking there
and that was the debate and even when we went to Planning and Zoning, oh yeah, "Parking",
well, there's plenty of parking on that campus. You could walk to the church. So you go now
and you see people coming up from the Campus Center and across from the areas. It really is,
I think, it's a wonderful sight and it's working as it should work. Obviously, that was a
building that had much attention from a lot of sources to get it built. It is not the building that
we had -- we actually had a much larger building designed -- it was kind of a double chapel
Oral History: John Phelen 14
when we first started, but that too got tailored back a little bit, but it's achieved all of the things
the original designs intended and I think it's generally in a location that dways was envisioned
for the Chapel.
HOW DID YOU COME UP WITH A DESIGN?
Well, it was very much driven by liturgists that were involved in the concepts. There was a
laymen liturgist contracted by the Jesuits and then the Jesuits had their own committee here and
the symbolism of the carillon, the symbolism of the meeting space outside, the entrance area,
the need to have, this instance it was to be not only a chapel, but to have a Campus Ministry
associated with it, that created, it worked out very well to have it on the side of the hill so that
people could walk down and have that whole Campus Ministry have free access to it without
getting into it, but being connected virtually. The fan-shape area was to take advantage of that
kind of seating close up to the altar which was desired, as well as to have the bringing in of the
natural architecture of the outside basically over a 180" area. And it's oriented, as it is, on the
north -- it has the north light coming in which will always, you know sometimes bright'sunlight
is distracting, sometimes dramatic, but tembly distracting, but it faces north there and has a
constant light. Being involved -- Jim Bowdin was our principal in charge of that project in our
office and A1 Szymansky was the Design Architect and they all got wrapped -- we all got
wrapped up a lot in the liturgy, in the liturgical, in response to the liturgical area.
I JUST WANT TO GO BACK BEFORE WE STAY UP IN THIS MODERN PERIOD --
DID YOU WORK CLOSELY WITH FATHER MCINNES WHEN HE WAS HERE ON
a ANY OF THE DESIGN?
Oral History: John Phelen 15
Oh, sure. Sure. Let me see what were the buildings that Father McInnes was involved with.
THE DORMS.
The dorms were quite a part of it.
I DON'T KNOW IF YOU WERE INVOLVED WITH THE CAMPUS CENTER.
Oh sure. Was that Father McInnes' time? The Campus Center was interesting because I
remember when we first joined there was a National Association of Campus Centers and so forth
and before we did that we joined that activity and went around and saw a variety of Campus
Centers and it was kind of interesting to see it. This is a very young University and had so
many demands. It wanted everything at once, needed everything at once and obviously couldn't
0 have everything at once, so all the buildings we were trying to do a lot. You couldn't have one
building for each thing. So I remember going around; we did a lot of research. We went to
Fordham and to St. Peter's, looked at what they had and why they did it and so forth and so on
and there was a lot of research done to come up with exactly what the program should be, what
should go on in the building. And it was again, it tried to do a lot of things, tried to be the
function of the student cafeteria, it tried to have its theatre, it tried to have the recreational parts
of it, it tried to have for social events, which the campus lacks badly -- a place for them to
entertain and so it had a variety of demands on it that I don't think other Campus Centers that
we had around the country, that we saw around the country needed to fit into it, so it became
a fairly complex building. I think it served the University well. They had the President's
Dining Room, a far cry from the President's Dining Room now, but my year as President, or
Chairman of the President's Circle, that was the big event -- to have the President's Circle
Oral History: John Phelen 16
Dinner up there, which I think in my year we went to I think 19 or 20 Circle Members -- quite
adequate for the 19 at that time. But as a building, it was a very, very complicated building.
Bob Mutro was involved in that as well and the designs on the exterior and the murals he had,
I remember seeing -- he had tissue paper, you know we had to clear out sections of our Drafting
Room so he made up these large murals. And somewhere we have some information on those
as to what all the theory behind those was and you'll see the relief, the concrete relief on I
guess, it's Gonzaga or Canisius. I guess Canisius, you'll see those concrete panels on the back
and the symbolisms that were cast in the concrete there. I guess that's limestone over there and
when we got to the Campus Center, the base of that was done. Interesting enough, we were
a struggling with those elevations to make them work because it was such a complex building.
Every side of it seemed to want to be different for different reasons so it was hard to get the
unity into that building and it was designed, because it was a unique building and because it was
different in its function, it, too, wanted to be central to the campus, but it was the first time we
broke from the buff-colored brick and it was to be that building that was to be dramatically
different for all those reasons and we struggled with those elevations and I know that A1
Szymansky who eventually ended up doing the Chapel was a young architect out of Pratt and
my memory, at least, I hope Bob Mutro doesn't get offended in some way, but I think A1
Szymansky was one of the key persons to come up with some of the ideas on how to unify that
design.
I THINK IT WAS FATHER FITZGERALD WHO WAS INVOLVED WITH THIS
a BECAUSE I REMEMBER WE INTERVIEWED HIM LAST YEAR AND HE TALKED
Oral History: John Phelen 17
ABOUT WORKING WITH BOB MUTRO AND APPARENTLY BOB CAME IN WITH
ONE DESIGN AND ANOTHER DESIGN AND A THIRD DESIGN AND I THINK
FITZGERALD FINALLY SAID TO HIM 'WHY DON'T YOU DO ONE THAT YOU
REALLY WANT TO DO?' AND HE BROUGHT THAT ONE AND IT WAS FINALLY
THE ONE THAT I THINK FATHER FITZGERALD APPROVED.
Yeah. I think there's a . . . there was also great debates in our place about the buildings out here
because we always, there was always that and I guess there were very few clients that you don't
have that great tension between personal taste on the owner's part, the function of the building
you're talking about and the cost associated with doing it, which always was a major issue.
a You're always tom a little bit by responding to a client's . . . and in those days, the Rector was
the Rector and head of the Jesuits and so on and so on and had a lot of power and I think it
wasn't a terribly democratic.process and a lot of those things, my father and Bob Mutro and
whether it be Father Fitzgerald, Joseph or James or William or whoever it was, would sit up
in that little room which is behind the telephone at Bellarmine Hall and they'd sit there and chat
about that thing and they'd say, "Well, that looks o.k., let's do that." And then it would get
turned over to whoever was running it and the people running it didn't have a lot of say in what
was being done.
WAS THE BOARD OF TRUSTEES BY THIS INVOLVED IN ANY OF THIS?
No. No. The Board of Trustees -- I really don't remember when the Board of Trustees came
aboard. I do know, certainly they were aboard by the time we did the Center for Financial
Studies. As a matter of fact, I was on the Board. Father James Fitzgerald put me on the Board,
Oral History: John Phelen 18
asked me to go on the Board and said at the time that we were just about done with building so
it would be appropriate at this point to go on, so there wasn't much more to be done. Well,
they found a few extra things to do and I was off the Board by the time, just about the time the
Center for Financial Studies was started.
WERE YOU ALSO INVOLVED WITH TAKING A PROJECT LIKE THIS TO
PLANNING AND ZONING, GETTING APPROVAL FROM THE TOWN?
Yes. Very much so and it always amazed me that the people would come out and have such
reactions to the buildings as we went along because they enjoyed the College so much, the real
estate values were zooming all around the University and they'd come out and it was like the
9 University was their property and their lawn and to desecrate their front lawn seemed to be a
terrible thing to do. Their dogs couldn't walk where they always used to walk. So you'd have
to have a lot of patience to go through those processes, but, yea, we made the presentations.
I can remember somewhere along the line, they probably had me on tape there 'cause I got
reminded of it after, when we first put the.. . the first townhouses and I came out to look at those,
at that site and I went down into the neighbor's yards on the opposite side of North Benson and
took photographs up there, across that stone wall and I was totally convinced that there was no
way, and we did site lines and so forth and you just couldn't see them and I remember going
to the Planning and Zoning Office and saying "I mean, I was down there, I've taken, here's the
photographs, I took them, here are the site lines, you just won't see those things." Well,
obviously there are a few spots that you could see those townhouses. They were one of the
a more controversial from the Planning and Zoning standpoint. They were difficult to get through
Oral History: John Phelen 19
and there was always thought to be some ulterior motive to putting those type of units up, but
clearly necessary and I think successful.
THEY'RE VERY DIFFERENT LOOKINGy IN SOME WAYS' THAN THE REST OF THE
ARCHITECTURE ON THE CAMPUS. HOW DID YOU COME UP WITH THAT KIND
OF A DESIGN?
Well, I think certainly, there was a response to the marketplace. There was no question that
getting students onto campuses, the traditional doubled-loaded comdor with cell-like rooms on
either side was not going to sell and the need to have more residential scale and'a different type
of lifestyle for the students was an important consideration and there they just became more
residential and flexible for their uses and you could build that scale building in frame e construction, so you got more beds for the dollar than you could with others and it seemed to
be more compatible with the lifestyle that the student wanted to have.
WHO DID YOU WORK WITH IN THE UNIVERSITY ON THAT PROJECT?
Oh, John Barone. John Barone, we worked with him for many, many years. I'm trying to
remember when we started to work with John Barone. You talk about all these Jesuits, but it
seems to me that we worked with John Barone forever, now, as I look back at it. One of the
more brilliant men that I've ever met. The only concern we had was that his mind was always
10 miles ahead of what he was saying and would jump, he would leap over things and you had
to be really, 'wait a minute, where were we?' But he was just an extraordinary individual. I
hope you get him on tape because he has more in his head about this University and could
a remember sizes of pipes that we put in 15 years ago and where they went and right now, we try
Oral History: John Phelen 20
to get all of our documents onto computer disk so that they could be recalled. If you could
clone John Barone, you probably wouldn't need any of those disks. He remembered everything
about every building that I can remember, so we worked with John on that. We probably
worked with him on the Rec Center. I'm sure he was around for the Rec Center which was also
a very ... that was a very interesting building and one that we had fun doing, because it was a
building to have fun in. There, again, it was a building that needed just to keep the University
competitive. It was a difficult decision to put that kind of money into a building of that type,
but there, again, we went, we did a lot of research around, we made a lot of trips to see what
should go into that building.
When the gym was published on the cover of Engineering News Record which was a big thing
and it still is in terms of the national press and the Campus Center was an Award Winner.
Certainly, the Quick Center has gotten may kudos from its operational point of view. That
building, its success is all inside the outside walls; the outside walls are admittedly stark and
pretty straightforward.
YOU WERE ALSO INVOLVED WITH THE BUILDING OF IT?
Yes.
THE QUICK CENTER AND THE LOCATION OF THE QUICK CENTER, HOW WAS
THAT DETERMINED?
Well, that was the beginning of the Campus Walk there, which would have been in another
academic environment which was going to be a whole area that maybe someday would have a
a communications facilities and Fine Arts area on the opposite side of the Library from the
Oral History: John Phelen 2 1
Science Building, so the next place to move was in that direction and so that was the first of
three buildings that would be in a complex down there that would be in the Fine and Performing
Arts part of the campus. It obviously was to, that particular building would certainly have more
public access than others of the area so it seemed logical to have it fairly close to one of the
entrances, and it certainly is a scenic sport and one where a building that is fairly mundane from
its exterior architecture would fit into an area and have the surrounds kind of make up for what
it might otherwise lack in architecture and the money there, clearly, money they wanted to spend
inside that building. There were attempts and designs, many, many designs for the Quick
Center.
a WERE YOU THE PRINCIPAL ARCHITECT ON THAT OR WAS THERE SOMEONE
-
ELSE?
No, there again, both the Gym, no excuse me, both the Quick Center and Chapel, we were both
deeply involved with Jim Beaudin who's my partner and A1 Szymansky. We did both of those
facilities on the design side and we had much more elaborate ideas and expectations but reality
prevailed. I think you know, like all things, I think that they overall objective was achieved and
it's somehow to reign yourself in when you would like to have accomplished so much more with
the architecture, but it certainly is ... we're just so pleased with the outcome and that it seems to
be satisfying the needs of others. The perfect building hasn't been done yet but that one is ...
we're real proud of the success that it's achieved and the compliments that it's received from
people who come in there and it says something, you know, about architecture. What is it
a supposed to achieve? If people experience that space when they come in there and they enjoy
Oral History: John Phelen 22
that space that makes it kind of successful and if it doesn't meet theleye of the architectural press
because of its plainness on the exterior, I think it's achieved its pubpose here. I'm pleased with
I
it.
WHY IS THE OUTSIDE A LITTLE PLAINER? I TAKE lirTH AT YOU'RE SAYING
i
i
Sure. I think the issue there is that you had a very, those were vlry expensive buildings to do
I
and to do them right, I mean, the acoustical quality of that building does not get achieved
cheaply so when you're talking about a fixed budget to achieve 750 seats in an area, the
i
experimental theater and to have a gathering in an attractive gathering place, to do all the things
a -- the Art Gallery -- all those things that want to be achieved, got to decide where you
want to put your quality dollars and I think they're there. I think that the
building itself, tucked there back in the woods, there again, that was a fairly tough Planning and
I
i
Zoning issue and we had to create some wetlands because we took some wetlands away, so we
had to create some wetlands and the lawn area, not the lawn area,(the meadow area to the west
I
of that building has to remain a meadow was part of the accommodation so it's no longer going
to be manicured lawn out there and that's part of it. I think it's kind of a natural surrounding
there and I think it will settle in there nicely and the people don't come to see the building, they
come to see what goes on inside of it so I think the priorities were well placed.
Oral History: John Phelen
NOW WHO DID YOU WORK WITH FROM THE UNIVERSITY? WAS THAT JOHN
BARONE AGAIN?
Well, Barone was certainly there. Tom Zingarelli was one of the, obviously he's got his blood
in I think every mortgage ought to be made there. He certainly lived through that and was a
major contributor to that.
WHAT TOM IN FAVOR OF A MORE ELABORATE EXTERIOR ORIGINALLY?
No, no. I think he clearly was concerned about the function of the building and I think he was
very instrumental in it and was not overly concerned. We had other designs. We clearly had
a variety of designs, a building that did have much more articulating architecture, a lot of ones
we would have loved to have built and got a long way on one of those buildings and came in
on about 50% over the estimates (we didn't bid the job). We got those things along the
preliminary plans and took all the costs off and went back and I remember a rather difficult day
up in the President's Dining Room to have to tell that that we were about 50% over the budget
of what we had and you know 'where would we go with the problem?' Back to the drawing
boards, where else? We ended up . . . I think we ended up with the best solution that we could
have.
HAS THAT BUILDING WON AWARDS?
It's been well published, yes. It was a modest award. It was selected . . . American Schools and
University selected it as one of its "Buildings of the Year" for one of its publications.
Oral History: John Phelen
NOW YOU WERE ALSO INVOLVED WITH THE CENTER FOR FINANCIAL
STUDIES RIGHT UP THE ROAD THERE WERE YOU NOT?
That was a very unusual thing because it started off as a combination of the University and the
community and the National Association of Mutual Savings Banks and it was a great group of
people and they came from all around the country to sit in on those meetings. That was Father
William Fitzgerald, I guess.
IT WAS TOM'FITZGERALD, I THINK.
Tom Fitzgerald.
I WAS INTERVIEWING SOMEONE YESTERDAY, I GUESS FATHER MCGRATH WAS
VERY MUCH INVOLVED.
Oh indeed he was. Indeed he was.. And John Barone, of course. And we . . . that building was
interesting because it had those inputs and they used to have great meetings between the bankers
and the community and the University to hammer out its program. That won an award; I think
it was of the 10 best conference centers in the country or something like that by the Conference
Center people.
WHY WAS THE COMMUNITY, I GUESS IT WOULD HAVE BEEN JOHN SULLIVAN
WHO WAS INVOLVED?
And Jack Fitzgerald and Bernie Gilhuly and people like that were community representatives and
it was, I believe it was the thought and people, other people might remember it better than I but
the ... it was to have community input because it was to reach out to the community and the
3 a business community, for sure to make it successful. It wasn't truly a University building, of
Oral History: John Phelen
course, so but that also had a very rocky road getting through Planning and Zoning, but it.. .
WHY WAS THAT?
Well, because it was obviously, it wasn't totally to be controlled by the University, there was
wondering whether liquors and parties and what they were going to do with traffic and what was
going to be exposed and what was going to go on, it was close to Barlow Road and I mean there
were all kinds of stories that were coming out about what that building really was going to be
used for. The community involvement on the Board was helpful to pacify the people that that
was not really ... that it really was serious business and that it was an important building, as it
turned out to be.
DO YOU SEE FURTHER BUILDING GOING ON HERE? DO YOU EXPECT THAT
THERE WILL BE OTHER.. .?
Oh, I'm sure there will be. Oh, I, myself think one of the concerns is . . . one of the things that
I'd like to see happen here is the entrance to the University off North Benson is, I think, very
old, very tired, very unattractive and very difficult to deal with, as a matter of fact, but that
should be addressed. I think the Barlow Road entrance needs to be addressed. It certainly is
a very, very pleasant environment once in through those gates. The conflict between
appropriateness, attractiveness and security are always at odds with each other, I guess, and even
in that location, but we need more signage, we need more walking paths, there's a lot of touches
that would and I think just the Campus Walk that was put in when the Chapel was put in begins
to say that those are the nice things that could happen. So, the University, after 50 years, has
a a lot to digest, tremendous amount to digest. They've done extraordinarily well but there's a
Oral History: John Phelen 26
lot of things, even as I was coming,in here today and driving up from Barlow Road and that
lovely expanse of lawn that goes down there, towards the Nyselius Library and on the other
side, going up, saying "Gee, it's just wonderful and space, what would happen if other things
got built there?" Because there are very, very few campuses that have the luxury of the space
that this place has. We do have a Master Plan that shows a variety of other buildings around
the campus; there certainly are plenty of places to build that won't invade dramatically that kind
of spaciousness. We certainly, I think more buildings down around the Quick Center are
appropriate there. I think more academic facilities to kind of create additional exterior
architecture around the Faculty Office Building and Canisius then we can develop some nice
a spaces there and upgrade those buildings along the way. So, there's things that want to be done.
I'd like to see continued enhancement of the landscaping, the signage, the lighting, walks, those
kinds of things which really after afterthoughts when the demands of getting a roof over
programs that have to be built, but those will all go to make that a better university.
DO YOU FEEL THERE'S A UNITY TO THE BUILDINGS OR TO THE UNIVERSITY
ITSELF?
Well, certainly, the materials, the unity of the materials that generally have been used give you
more unity than many institutions. I think the creation of more connecting buildings (it's like
I mentioned around the FOB, not have them march along in a row, but actually go into a space
that you can get to them), I think getting the parking off of there and getting that road off of
there, I think that begins to pull the buildings together, so I think ... and then possibly some
expansion at the Library that is certainly going to have to come at some point in time. One of
Oral History: John Phelen 27
the . . . you mentioned that the Nursing School which we didn't mention . . . that's really a terrific
little building kind of stuck in there, kind of at the back end of the loading dock of the Campus
Center and that type of thing. It's really a nice building and it's relationship to the Science
Building and how that's linked together. We have some real nice pictures of that and it's very
photogenic -- that little walkway going out through there and more of those kind of linking
buildings together, more intimate exterior space would enhance the campus.
WHO DID YOU WORK WITH ON THE NURSING SCHOOL PROJECT?
Well, let's see.
I THINK IT WAS FATHER FITZGERALD WHO WAS HERE THEN. OR PERHAPS
a NOT.
Or could it have been Father McInnes.
IT MAY HAVE BEEN.
It could have been Father McInnes. Ralph Lowland was the architect in our office who worked
on it and Ralph is still associated with the office although he's retired now, he's still associated
in a management way, as one of our advisors. That was a, I thought an awfully nice little
building. I think it's working well. WERE YOU ALSO THE ARCHITECT?
Our firm was.
WERE YOU DIRECTLY INVOLVED WITH IT?
Well, I guess I have been involved in all of the buildings, one way or another because I just . . .
my wife tells the story when I was working on the gymnasium, it was years after, it was a year
a after it was completed and I came home from a School Board Meeting somewhere up the line
Oral History: John Phelen 2 8
and I'd end up at Fairfield University Campus, the car would just go and I'd say 'Why am I
here in the middle of the night and I'd be on the Campus?' Because your mind would go, that's
where the car usually went so you ended up here, so because you're involved in some way or
another, there's very few things out here and I just enjoy it. I mean, I don't know that I'm
needed, but you go where you have fun doing it. I guess there are certainly others in our
organization who have taken much of the credit for the design of the facilities, but it's just an
important part of our life.
DO YOU THINK THAT THE PEOPLE LIVING AROUND THE CAMPUS, I MEAN,
HOW ARE THEY GOING TO ADJUST TO EVEN MORE BUILDING? I CONSTANTLY
a READ IN THE PAPER THEY'RE LIVING HERE IN FAIRFIELD, OH PEOPLE
COMING OUT TO OPPOSE, OH STILL ANOTHER BUILDING...
I don't think it's any longer. The University is such an asset for the community and the area.
There'll always be people who will object to it and it's kind of the democratic way. We've
pretty much built around the.. .I don't see many more buildings on the periphery of this campus
so I don't see any structures that are going to have any visual impact on the surrounding areas
but there clearly will be....people will be concerned and we have filed with the Planning and
Zoning, the Long Range Plans that indicate that someday there will be other buildings and just
when and where and how but they certainly can absorb, the campus can absorb.. .I mean this is
very low density in terms of building use so I think there will be always people who will find
reason to object, but it's not a concern, 'cause the College has tried to be sensitive, I think, to
a community concerns and does a pretty good job at it, but you'll never satisfy everybody.
Oral History: John Phelen
OF ALL THE BUILDINGS THAT YOU'VE BEEN INVOLVED WITH, DO YOU HAVE
A FAVORITE?
Here on the campus? I guess it ... mmm. That's a good question. I haven't stopped to think
about it. They each ... various ones have my various connections with. Obviously my
involvement with the gym is special because I was just getting into the business and it was a
great opportunity to be involved in something so from a personal standpoint, my involvement
was greater there than probably in any of the others but I guess the one that has given us, both
the Chapel and the Quick Center have given us most personal satisfaction. The Chapel,
probably because it was so long overdue and people enjoy that and I enjoy it, being in it, just
a a great place and great satisfaction there and it was one of my father's greatest dreams to have
a Chapel there, so probably the Gym from a personal standpoint and in some ways, the Chapel
might be another one.
I THINK THAT'S ALL THE QUESTIONS I HAVE. I DON'T KNOW IF THEY HAVE
ANY MORE. Okay.
THANK YOU. IT WAS A VERY ENJOYABLE.
(Hold on . . .)
BELLARMINE HAD SOME UNIQUE ... ANY THOUGHTS ON CLASSROOMS, IN GENERAL.
ANY THOUGHTS YOU COULD DISCUSS ABOUT SIZE OF CLASSROOMS. I THINK YOU
a ALREADY DISCUSSED THE GENERAL MASER OERALL PLAN, BUT ESTHETICALLY,
Oral History: John Phelen 30
DOES THE CAMPUS HANG TOGETHER?
(R.W.: We just talked about that).
AM SOMETHING TAMAT I SEEM TO HAW HEARD WHEN I CAME ABOARD IN 1980 IS THE
BUILDING OF THE RECPLEX. WAS TAMAT OM OF YOUR BUILDINGS?
Yes, we talked briefly about the RecPlex. We went around the countryside quite a bit to find
out what we should put in there and again, they have their compromises. The Bellarmine Hall
change in Administration Building, that also was a very exciting and interesting thing, a lot of
effort went in there to try and retain ... there the challenge was not to do something, but to
avoid doing something. I mean, the challenge was not to destroy that building in the process
a of putting offices in there and I give Father Kelley a tremendous amount of credit for standing
up and coming up with an answer because the Fire Marshal was going to right the Grand Hall,
that room was going to be decimated with some sort of fire enclosure or stair or elevator or
something, I couldn't remember what the issue was now, but there was a major issue there but
he said 'There's no way.' He just will not allow that and we found a compromise that was
acceptable and finally got that through the Fire Marshal's approval.
WHAT WAS THAT?
I believe it was an additional stairway that had to be carved into that space and it was just going
to destroy the ceiling, the ceilings that were on there, the moldirigs that were around the area
and cut into and destroy the geometry of those spaces. I think that was a good tough task to do
that. We didn't do too much to it, we did have to whack it up to a couple of spots, but we
a saved most of the area. The fire wall at the top of the stairs on the second floor is not
Oral History: John Phelen
something that is of great beauty but I will assume that it will make it a safer place.
IS THERE ANYTHING ABOUT CLASS SIZES THAT WENT INTO ANY OF THE
DESIGNS OF THE BUILDINGS?
The class, I mean, now is the time that we're beginning to talk a little bit about new academic
facilities and I think the role of the classroom in colleges and universities is got to be re-thought.
We obviously have a variety of pretty standard classrooms here on the campus and there's
probably . . . standing back and looking at if we could do more academic buildings exactly 'what
do we mean by an academic building and what does it.. .what will the electronic media do to the
classroom and what sizes of classrooms and flexibility is associated with it? What should really
go on in those classrooms?' So, I think that there's a need to re-study that. I suspect there'll 0 always be a need for gathering space for 20 or 30 students to sit down and listen to a Professor
or debate with a Professor, I guess, but I think probably there will be some new approaches to
the classrooms and the relationship between the classrooms to the Library. You know, what will
go on in a Library, in the electronic media that will be involved with it. Obviously, the trend
is more of audio-visual and telecommunications going on in a classroom than we've ever had
before. That's one of the problems with the existing ones to get them up to speed. I think
there's, from our point of view, we would want to . . . just as we have done on other buildings
out there to step back and say 'let's just not build a classroom, but at least when we did the
Campus Center, we didn't know what the Campus Center was going to be and you had to step
back and decide what it should be. But I don't see much . . . but I think classrooms are pretty
a standard here now. Is that it?
Oral History: John Phelen 32
DID YOU HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE RENOVATION WITH McCAULLIFE? ARE
THERE ANY PLANS FOR ZWT?
We studied McCauliffe a lot as to what it could be used for. It's being used now, of course.
It has a very difficult problem because there's a high price tag to convert it to almost any use
and to make it fire safe, to bring it up to code, to use all of its square footage. When I was on
the fourth floor in one of those little cubby holes back in 1943 or '44, nobody seemed to worry
that I wasn't going to get out of there alive: I managed to stay there and learn Algebra or
whatever the heck they were trying to teach me in those days, but now it would be very difficult
to use all that space without spending a lot of money. That's going to be a difficult building to
a make economic use out of, all of it. It certainly has an economic value now for what it's being
used for now, but using all of it is going to be a real chore.
JUST IN GENERAL, JOHN, ONE MORE THING ZWT DEALS WITH MCCAULIFFE AM)
BELLARMINE. I DON'T KNOW IF I CAN PHRASE THE QUESTION INTELLIGENTLY, BUT
CERTAIMY FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE, THE PROS AM) CONS FROM TRYlNG TO SAVE
OLDER BUILDINGS VERSUS TEARING THEM DOWN AM) REBUILDING A NEW
BUILDING.. .ESTHETICALLY AM) COST FACTORS. IS THERE SOMETHING UE CAN TALK
ABOUT THERE?
Well, certainly, those two buildings are very, very valuable and certainly should be saved.
There are buildings that are 40 and 50 years that could well come down before those buildings
that are 80 or 100 years old, so I think it's the quality of the original building that would make
a it, just because it's old, in my view, would make it terribly valuable. It's got to serve a
Oral History: John Phelen 33
purpose, but good old buildings are very worth saving. That question got asked of me of
Bridgeport City Hall. You know, we're trying to bring that up to speed right now. You know,
the Mayor asked me 'Is it really worth saving this thing?' It absolutely is. Absolutely is.
Absolutely is, even if ... the rule of thumb is if you were spending more than 50% of a new
building, it's questionable. Well, that rule of thumb goes out the window when you have a
building that is of the quality of that building or many of the other classical buildings that we
have. We've destroyed enough of those over the last 2-3 decades and I think McCauliffe and
Bellarmine give a lot of character to this campus that, despite the fact that we think that the
buildings we built here are good, functional buildings, they certainly don't rival those two
a buildings in terms of image of the University. I think it was wonderful that we were able to do
with Bellarmine because it works very well for what it's there and I would hope that we could
find a similar use for McCauliffe to make it, but it's an important building for this Campus.
OKAY.
Oral History: John Phelen